Lunar Sample Return

[neubjr]

I was just wondering what people thought about creating a lunar sample return mission for profit would be?

There will probably be a NASA launched lunar sample return from South Pole Aitken basin (see http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/robotic_moon_020801.html ).

However I am talking about a smallest simplest lunar sample return possible, to get as much lunar material to the Earth as possible for as little $ as possible in order to Make a profit from Selling the Lunar Rock.

I am currently heavily involved in researching Lunar Resources and material and have been very interested in getting lunar development going, in order to do this, one needs a profitable business plan (in my opinion this is necessary).

Do you think that a Lunar Sample return mission could be a good initial beginning to this? And if so, what research studies have looked into this?

Anyone?

- Joshua.

[SEDShead]

Who would buy the lunar material? Various research agencies, or the highest bidder? Its an interesting concept, but I think the ideas which include "joy riding" on the moon via some kind of telepresence probably have a better chance of turning a buck.

Sample return, even from a gravity well as small as the moon's, is a difficult challenge. However, I wonder how much it would cost to re-create the Soviet "Luna" missions? These were more drill-core type sample return missions (no large rocks), and probably not as saleable as actual rocks.

[K6-III]

What if you use a self-deploying magnetic launcher????

[Kirsten]

I read this article a couple of months back which points out that in most cases, ownership of lunar material is illegal in the United States:

http://www.space.com/news/moon_rock_020701.html

I think this is beyond ridiculous, but it could put a serious cramp in a business that sells lunar material for profit. I don't know how the case ended up, but I will dig around and see what I can find out. It does indicate, though, that it could turn out to be a profitable venture if the legal challenges could be overcome. The problem is, though, that if lunar samples become (for whatever reason) easy to get, the price is going to come way down so the profits could shrink dramatically in a short period of time under the right circumstances.

[neubjr]

Yeah, I heard about that problem with ownership too. And I agree that if lunar rocks become readily available the price will drop drastically.

This is one reason that I want to start looking at it now. The reason that I look at it like this is because I want to find the simplest ways to open the lunar frontier and if we can put together a mission that pretty much will pay for itself then that will be excellent for pushing more missions to the moon. Also, if this mission can leave something useful on the moon for future use that will add that much more benefit to lunar exploration. For example, if the mission could just leave some simple system for Power, or for producing oxygen on the moon in place, this would greatly benefit future missions interested in going to the lunar surface.

So if a small mission can launch some Kg of material back to the earth and leave a good bit on the moon it would be greatly beneficial. We've done a little research here, and estimated that a Delta II launch to LEO plus a manufactured transit stage could deliver 315 to 520kg (dry mass) to the lunar surface. A first level analysis of Oxygen production plants yielded that a system could produce 500kg of Oxygen per year for a plant mass of ~300kg. I'm not sure exactly how much mass would be needed for a lunar return stage but if you could fit it to ~200 kg then you could launch something back from the moon and at the same time leave a system sitting on the surface producing O2.


I think its something to seriously look into :) which is what I'm trying to do.

-Joshua.

[K6-III]

Best of luck...

[SEDShead]

Originally posted by Kirsten
... in most cases, ownership of lunar material is illegal in the United States ... I think this is beyond ridiculous, but it could put a serious cramp in a business that sells lunar material for profit.

I'm sure this pertains to "Lunar material returned by the Apollo Lunar Program" which of course is most lunar material on Earth (~900Kg). There are lunar meteorites (tektites?) that anyone can buy, and perhaps the small amount (a few tens of Kgs) that the Soviets returned.

[Kirsten]

Originally posted by SEDShead
I'm sure this pertains to "Lunar material returned by the Apollo Lunar Program" which of course is most lunar material on Earth (~900Kg). There are lunar meteorites (tektites?) that anyone can buy, and perhaps the small amount (a few tens of Kgs) that the Soviets returned.

You know, I started to think that might be what it was when I started looking around. I just have been totally unsuccessful finding anything about the court case in question or laws pertaining to the material in question.

Kirsten

[neubjr]

How long ago was the court case? I remember hearing about it, but haven't seen the details of it all in along time. It'd be kind of interesting to find out the exact detail of the matter :)

joshua.

[Kirsten]

According to the various articles I've read, the court case started in late June/early July this year. I have been unsuccessful in figuring out which court system it is going through or has gone through.

Kirsten

[neubjr]

So assuming that one can own lunar rocks, there still remains the problem of could you sell them for a high enough amount to actually return a profit, or at least pay for a sizeable chunck of the mission.

If you take an Delta II rocket with a constructed transit stage to the moon, the minimal cost for such a mission would be $100 million (~$70million for the Delta, and ~$30 million in developing the transit stage). From some low level calculations we could lauch ~500kg to the lunar surface. But you could at maximum take 300kg back. Assuming that you can get 200kg of lunar samples back from the surface for this cost, you would have to sell each kilogram of lunar rock for $500,000 to break even.

Does anyone think that you could sell hunks of the moon to millionaires for that much? At least to start off. Its a tricky question. I unfortunately don't think that moon rocks will be able to pull such a high price. So we'll have to work on getting the cost of such a mission down.

Joshua.

[Kirsten]

I don't think that you could get a high price if it looked like the price would come down significantly in the near future. Since the rock doesn't actually do anything and since it wouldn't be of sentimental value, it seems like most people would be looking at them as either investments or research supplies. So if it looked like the price was going to come down in the near future, one might imagine that most people would prefer to wait.

I don't think the problem is going to be solved by bringing down the cost of the mission. If you brought down the cost of the mission then moon rocks would become fairly common fairly quickly further reducing what people are willing to pay for them.

But another similar idea that might work in its place is to take things of sentimental value to space/the moon/etc. and return them to their owners or leave them at a desired destination.

TransOrbital, Inc. which has been authorized for its first planned mission to the moon has some such deals here:
https://www.transorbital.net/catalog/index.html
They are charging $2500/gram.

Celestis Services will launch a symbolic portion of the cremated remains of a loved one to various destinations:
http://www.celestis.com/

Kirsten

[K6-III]

Something you may reconsider is the launch vehicle. Nothing cheaper that the Russian Proton at this time.....

[neubjr]

Has transorbital actually had buyers? Are the excutally expecting to turn a profit on their mission? I guess they probably haven't released much detail on that question but it'd be interesting to know.

On the side of the PRoton launch vehicle. True that the proton is the cheapest now, but how strict are the international laws regulating it's use to commerical (American) companies? Would it be a big hassle to launch on that? What is Transorbital using to launch?

Wow, this post is just a load of questions... sorry.

Joshua.

[K6-III]

Companies from all over the world, including the US, already launch with Proton...

[Kirsten]

I don't know about the pricey packages, but TransOrbital has much cheaper packages than the $2500/gram for personal items. They have some packages that let you send data for less than $50 so I've got to believe they have some customers.

Here's their order form:
https://www.transorbital.net/catalog/index.html

According to their website, they are using a Dnepr launch vehicle. I found more info about the launch vehicle here:
http://www.kosmotras.ru/

[K6-III]

Means they're launching on Ukranian vehicles...