Overhauling seds.org

[jenmichael2000]

Hi All,

The goal of this would be to make all the seperate parts of seds.org work together, and look good together. They seem currently very disjointed, and I think that people would take us more seriously as an organization if we presented ourselves better. And being a global organization, I can`t think of another way than having a really good, well thought out website. We can`t exactly rent a building and cover it with posters...

So I am proposing doing three things: First, finding a style for the site that everybody likes, second, collecting all the information we possibly can about everything we consider important (a large amount of this is done), and thirdly, finding an efficient way of presenting it, ie. make it searchable or something so that people can zero in quickly on what is important to them...

Something I have already done is create a code that collects peoples information, and then displays it in a highly ordered fassion, something which I don`t believe seds.org currently does. check out canada.seds.org, make yourself an account, and chech it out!

-Mike :)

[paulsc]

Hi Mike

I think it is a very good idea to structure SEDS and implement the whole structure within an information system (like a webpage for example)
However, this will be a massive and very complex project since seds is scattered at the moment. It even would be complex for a professional business enterprise! However there are a couple of very effective methods to tackle such a project. ( most of them come from the business management sector) Nonetheless they can get rather complicated if we haven t got a detailed project plan on hand. We, SEDS Austria have a very strong focus on those (management) issues and a couple of very good professional advisors. (eg.: Prof.DR. Mag. Watzenböck, former Executive Manager of IBM Eastern Europe, (now retired) ) who is willing to support us with his vast experience. I hope you are interested in a close cooperation with seds austria on this project. I am shure we can help a lot.

[jenmichael2000]

You clearly have a great deel of experience and resources with which to help out! Welcome to the team!

For the moment, what SEDS Canada has to offer is growing experience with web programing, and an idea of what we want to accomplish :) I have to go now, but will get back in touch with you soon.

-Mike

[JediJosh]

I've talked with the SEDS-USA Exec Board, and we would like to see a lot more activity and legitimacy from SEDS Earth before we allow you to use www.seds.org as the SEDS Earth home page.

Work on building SEDS-Earth as an organization, and revamping www.earth.seds.org up.

[Styx]

Hello,

I'll be working with the group as an incoming webmaster for SEDS-USA so I hope to be of some use in getting things together!

It would be nice to have a persistent design across sections of seds.org but also allowing each section to be unique for their viewers. Things can certainly be more unified and structurally organized, but cooperation will be needed!

[kittell]

...this was before my time, mind you -- it looks like Chris Lewicki had an idea about maintaining a database for members, chapters, etc.: http://forums.seds.org/showthread.php?p=81#post81. Mike, I'm not sure how this relates to what SEDS Canada is doing. And I have no idea how this relates to what SEDS-USA is using. Any of you w/ database experience understand it?

I found the post hiding while researching for integrating the SEDS wiki/forums/eSupport/blogs logins (http://forums.seds.org/showthread.php?t=2644) and thought I'd share it...

[jenmichael2000]

Thank you for all your replies! The level of interest is encouraging!

As for using earth.seds.org for the moment instead of seds.org, we understand your concern. earth.seds.org is the logical proving ground for this project. It is less clear whether this issue affects the proposal to change the style of the forums.

I will post again soon with some kind of strategic plan.

Cheers,

-Mike

[jimvolp]

Mike,

If you need help with your strategic plan, let me know.
I am interested to help you.

greetings,

Jim

[jenmichael2000]

Thank's Jim!

I (we) will get back to you soon on that!

We'll get started on it as soon as we can, which for me means either tonight (possible), or saturday, (likely). It will be interesting to see how many if anybody else pipes up by then ;)

-Mike

[jneeskans]

I would like to go one step beyond what Mike has suggested and suggest that we begin with defining the goal of the website first.

The page should:
1. give information about SEDS - SEDS-Earth in this case
2. also present projects, things we've done .. sort of like YouTube...offering the tool and also showing what people have done with the tool.

This is the most basic that I can go to before working our way up.

pradeep

[jenmichael2000]

including a description of what seds earth -is- is essential, of course, however, including descriptions and links to things we have already done is something I had -not- thought of, and it sounds like an excellent idea to me. The most logical way I can think of presenting them is to devide a section of the page into two columns, and have past achievements to the left, and current and proposed projects to the right...

As for my grand plan for this project, i will submit that shortly :)

-Mike

[kittell]

I wanted to give a quick clarification. It seems like there are two goals merged into one in Pradeep's post:

making a better seds.org web site
making a SEDS-Earth web site

I wouldn't merge the two ideas, unless there was a reason to do it. SEDS-USA has had responsibility for the seds.org web site since 1994, and has an officer accountable for it. SEDS-Earth doesn't really create new content, but brings content from the national branches into a common place where it can be shared.

I think there is the opportunity. If you have someone from SEDS-USA responsible for maintaining the site, and can use the SEDS-Earth Council (nudge, Pradeep) to enhance the content of the site with information from the non-US chapters, then you have a pretty good system. You're not getting in each others' way (i.e., not stepping on toes with regards to responsibility), creating interesting site content, and making the main site accessible to people from various countries that want to participate.

Anyway: apply the "I'm not a student, and therefore should have no decision-influencing power in your discussion" filter here.


And I think Pradeep has a good idea to define what you want to do first -- the systems engineering approach.

[Lavina]

Do we have a dedicated webmaster for the SEDS-EARTH site? Because that might be one of the best ways to start. This will also enable us to integrate our content and structure with that of the main SEDS site (working with the SEDS webmaster of course)

[jneeskans]

yeah,

I gave those as an example. must make things more clear and am still re-learning about posting on forums.

Webmaster would be great. And, we will stick to earth.seds.org -- but I think even SEDS-USA is a part of SEDS-Earth and can also contribute!

After clarifications, I am looking to get content from all the chapter reps. I have sent emails (today) to reps in US, UK and Canada to send in pics and a maybe a few lines about their national conferences -- so we can have more conferences and I can go behind more chapter reps to get more reports in a self-stroking cycle of content growth.

But, chapter reps are the best people to think about and create new content on Gallery, on the Wiki and on the Blogs. All of these are under-utilised as of now.

Thanks for all the nudges but exams beckon. I will check periodically, though.

And, Kirk, I will work with Ryan, Mike and Prasanth to further that idea you gave us!!

keep the discussions going,
Pradeep

[Styx]

On a related note, I'm thinking about using an inverted version of the current SEDS-Earth layout for seds.org. It's looking nice so far.

I'll also be redoing the login system that's currently there in case anyone cares =)

- Josh

[kittell]

Hey Josh. Just so you don't think we did anything magical (and to prevent you from re-inventing the wheel, etc., etc.), I took that design from Open Source Web Design (http://www.oswd.org). The style is Metro01 (http://www.oswd.org/design/preview/id/2995) by Carlos Forghieri (http://www.drugo.biz/).

OSWD is great. I never waste my time starting from scratch -- rather, I start with one of those and then tweak it.

[Styx]

Thanks! I've been looking around trying to look for something, but so far haven't found anything as nice as that one. If anyone has any suggestions, feel free to relay them over!

[jenmichael2000]

Here are some of my thoughts on the project I have proposed. Obviously I am not, do not want to be, and can't be a dictator with respect to the seds earth site.

With that said, all of these things are things that I am interested in seeing implemented, and that I don't think should be particularly hard to implement. the benefit of re-inventing the wheel in our case is that you can re-invent it in precisely the way you want, you can exert a high degree of control over how it works, and how it is presented, and, with any luck, do it in such a way that it requires very little maintenance from any one person.

I would like to emphasize that what I don't like about the idea of the seds earth site becoming a directory of other sites is that the information contained on those other sites will not necessarilly (almost guaranteed won't) be presented in the same format, and with the same style as we could present it within the same site.

Again, the goal of this site would ultimatelly be to replace all other seds sites, incorporating the features of each one in a common package with a common style (with the exception of the styles of the pages of individual chapters).

Plan for the SEDS Canada or SEDS Earth websites:

Listings:

-members (Done)
-chapters (Done)
-speakers
-projects
-space companies/organizations (begun...)
-helpful websites
-news
-events



-Blog
-forums

[B]Functions:

-Each entry individually updatable, either by only one individual, or by anybody (where the choice exists it will be made available at the time of posting)

-Searches can be made of any listing or of the entire site, using detailed search criteria

-Users can identify similar criteria identifying what areas of interest they want to receive updates on

Administrative:

-the content of the projects, websites, news, and events part of the site should be moderated to maintain maximum efficiency of relevant information transmission

-ie, permission would ave to be granted every time somebody wants to post something, to ensure that each thing is only advertized once, and to ensure that appropriate the appropriate information is provided for each post (refer to the third item under functions), and perhaps to promote clarity and conciseness in posts.

-each item of information displayed would have to updated regularly (once a month?) or it would time out automatically. This would ensure that irrelevant postings do not persist

-it would be to be determined how, but ideally as much of all of this as possible would be automatic...

Presentation:

-All the pages (including those containing the content of the website, but excluding the pages of national chapters) should share a common style and structure to increase ease and pleasure of use of the site

Advertising:

-to be determined, but it would seem beneficial to provide relevant companies with the chance to advertise on the site, both to generate income for the organization, and allow users to get to know the different companies in the industry.

So there are some of my preliminary thoughts... I will post more of them as they come, but in the meanwhile, I welcome the input of everybody -just don't shout me down! ;)

-Mike :)

[kittell]

Sorry to keep butting in as the non-student, just wanted to make a clarification re: SEDS-Earth. There are no SEDS-Earth sites (just http://earth.seds.org) or SEDS-Earth chapters. All are SEDS sites and SEDS chapters. The current configuration of SEDS-Earth -- and you may wish to change it, just giving the status as I see it -- is that it is a community where the national branches interact because there is no central SEDS organization. It's like ESA (I think): not above the national branches, but between them. We didn't think it was appropriate to make the national branches be required to report upwards to an organization that we created (well... we tried that way first, but then it failed, and then it seemed inappropriate, to be honest).

Really, what you seem to be saying is that that you have a plan for the SEDS Canada and SEDS web sites, not SEDS-Earth web sites. It's confusing, yes, but unless you can create a system where the various national entities of SEDS can agree on how they interact -- perhaps a goal for SEDSIC2008? -- then it is the only way that exists. I wouldn't mind if you replaced SEDS-Earth or its web site; I've been trying to give away any responsibilities that I have for it for months now. I'd be happy to help since I've seen a lot of different ways to fail, but it is your responsibility as students. I'm just a caretaker until someone takes the responsibility.

I hope that helps in some way with regards to your plan for organizing the web site. Probably more confusing...


By the way, have you registered an account with seds.org, Mike? Go to http://seds.org/register.php. That's what I was referring to when I was talking about re-inventing the wheel. Some things you want may already exist in some fashion, and if you don't pick up from there, well, you might lose SEDS-USA in the process, since that is what they are working with. I'm not sure, but it seems like you are creating a parallel database and registration system to that...

Also, there are lists of events (http://wiki.seds.org/index.php/Events) and projects (http://wiki.seds.org/index.php/Projects) and news (http://wiki.seds.org/index.php/Space_News) that exists, if you'd like to use it. Or if not, no problem. I keep those updated as I find information.

[jenmichael2000]

the point was not intended to be to be above the national chapters. the point was to limit the amount of information that is displayed on the site so that it is easier to process all of it. It is often the case that there is simply too much information in a given location, and so it is impossible, or difficult to figure out what the real story is. If people always have to fight, they will eventually give up. Given that we are trying to bring together information regarding just about everything that is happening in the world, I can easily see the site suffering from information overload.

[jneeskans]

just as an idea -- trying it out with the SEDS India website -- using the wiki as a store house of the content which will be used on the website. The content on the website will be a more refined version of the website with related contact information etc.

From what I understand, Mike is trying to get us to have a similar look and feel for all the pages on seds.org I guess something like the SGAC (http://www.spacegeneration.org) website. It has forums, calendar and all other features integrated into a common skin for the website. And, I think he says that he can model the SEDS-Canada website along similar lines, so that people feel that they are in a SEDS website only. Hopefully, I got it right.

A few more examples of this common feel: BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk) website and JAM (http://www.jammag.com), among the websites I know.

But, I believe, that is more easily established when you use a CMS like Drupal etc. Doing it with HTML and CSS styling may be a difficult ask. But, I am not an expert on this.

One useful feature I'd like on seds.org is to have one login to access all the features: Gallery, Forums, Wiki, Blogs etc.

Vis a vis, website design: even the SEDS India website has been started out from a template and brought to form it has. That design is by Andreas Viklund and is called Andreas02 (http://andreasviklund.com/templates/)

[Styx]

I generally picture wikis as being large storehouses of data-type information (to be edited by anyone or nearly so) rather than as a proper medium for web pages unless that is the type of web site that is being offered.

It would be nice to have a common scheme for all SEDS web services. I will look into it more once the board approves a design to use.

BBC is pretty consistent but allows diversity within itself as well. That is something that my university does. They have a group dedicated to External Relations which publishes web standards and requirements for all pages on the domain (including color scheme, web banners, and implementation of html/css).

Having a CMS comes with its various quirks and difficulties. Management is not a seamless thing. But it can be helpful in getting more people to be able to edit pages. But having someone do HTML/CSS is a fairly easy task.

I heard that the one login was a thing in production that's sort of teetered off to the edge. It can be tricky correlating all of the sessions and the registration procedure. I don't think it's a major priority right now, but certainly something that should be done in the future.

[jenmichael2000]

Ok, first of all, to my immense relief, it seems like my main message is bein understood, the idea being to have a common style for all the pages, so that the site appears as a unified whole with a common message and spirit, as opposed to the poor man's (or resourceful man's, depending on how you want to view it) expedient solution, 6 different sites attached together with sticky tape and glue, which is the way it now appears.

Another message I wanted to get across is that it is sometimes easier, when dealing with complex things like all these different websites, to, instead of trying to get them to all work together by banging your head against the wall of all the (incompatible?) code, and making fixes for the various bugs as they pop up, to just remake the thing from scratch... this is not to say that it is necessarilly the thing to do, but microsoft has been taking criticism for years for just this strategy, building new code on old code to try to fix the old code, when they should perhaps have just tried to fix the old code, or just replaced it with something that worked better... Hence, linux and the open source movement is thriving.

I am prepared to write this new code, and that is actually what I am doing, or have been doing and will continue to do, with the seds canada website. I am enjoying immensely the chalenge and rewards of figuring out how to implement all this stuf, and am realizing that it is not actually as hard as it might seem, if you look at a given page and try to imagine how it was generated.

So those were two of the main things I wanted to get across. I have no desire to impose anything on anybody. I am just aware that when computers are conserned, it really doesn't matter where you are, the code is the same. If and when i/we get the canadian site running in it's full glory, it will almost be an afterthought to tweek it so that it can be used by anybody anywhere in the world, interested in anything, etc.

In the case that the whole grand plan of unifying all these pages with a common style does not work, I would quite possibly be perfectly happy providing the community with my code so that it can be added to the seds.org site with some extra sticky tape and glue, assuming that they do not actually already have something that does the same thing as mine does. With that said, I can't log into seds.org... perhaps somebody can add me as a member of seds canadia so I can check it out? (canadia is the name they gave to seds canada when I showed up at the seds meeting at mit)...

[jenmichael2000]

Mike,

If you need help with your strategic plan, let me know.
I am interested to help you.

greetings,

Jim

Two people so far, (Jim and Kirk) have mentioned strategic plans... Something about establishing a time-line for the project, and criteria defining its successful conclusion. As for the time-line, I have been working on the seds canada site since september 2005, and am still not finished, and the number of things I still want to do with it has not decreased in the least :( (as I get things done, and I have got a lot of things done, I keep thinking of more things I want to do) So yes, defining what it is we want to do with the thing, then sticking with that and finishing it within a given time frame will be a major challenge.

Here would be my preliminary proposal:

1) Determine which national and regional chapters would be interested in a common site where all information now displayed on many different sites would be displayed in one place, with a unified presentation style.

-completion date: January first? December 15th? 20th?

2) If there is interest, determine which pages would be common and which ones would be chapter specific.

-February first.

3) Decide on the layout and style of the (seds earth) home page. (and create it)

-march 1st.

4) Decide what the website should be able to do (searches of the database, keeping track of who is friends with who, knowing how many people are interested in rocketry, send mass-e-mails). this will potentially have an impact on how the information is stored.

-april 1st.

5) Decide on the way in which information will be stored. (and code it)

-may 1st.

6) Decide on the way in which information will be displayed.

-one month per page?



So, I am really curious what the reactions will be to this proposal. I have absolutely no idea what they will be.

-Mike

[jenmichael2000]

No responses so far. that kind of annoys me. are my ideas -really- that bad?

anyhow, the proposal has evolved somewhat. here is the latest incarnation:

Here is a preliminary proposal for an initiative to get people working together on the space internet archive, writen by Lavina Parwani:

1) We have a Space Archive
2) We use the Wiki
3) We have a task force
4) People apply to be on the task force. Applications approved by SEDS EARTH Council heads
5) Task Force takes charge of the Space Archive
6) Task Force delegates responsibility

Seds earth council draws up the application within the next 2 weeks and sends it out together with a description of the project and the task force applications come in over the next two months and after two months, applications close, council chooses, with the help of advisors, and the task force draws up a project plan and assigns responsibilities. One of the applicants is chosen as task force leader.

comments are welcome

the transcript that this comes from is online somewhere as well... kirk?

-Mike

[kittell]

Hey Mike. Your ideas aren't that bad. The real problem is: has anyone been here to see them? They might need a friendly nudge. Not your fault, not their fault -- that's just how it works in a volunteer organization. We/You all have things to do :)

Also, you might have confused the issue a little by adding this information about wiki Space Information Archive to the seds.org thread. Can I move that post to a more relevant thread about the archive?

---------------

Josh/Styx -- I saw the recent exec transcript that shows your idea for the seds.org template, http://www.new.seds.org/sys/. Awesome. Seriously. Fantastic. Know what really makes me happy? The RSS feed. I can't tell you how key I think that will be for getting people to return to your site.

Since you've taken the SEDS-Earth site -- don't misunderstand and think I'm being snarky: I'm not claiming credit for it since I took it from OSWD -- do you also have the small php codes that run the email list signup form? They're really simple. You might already know it.

Whenever you decide your final style, let me know. I can start applying it over http://forums.seds.org, http://wiki.seds.org, and http://blogs.seds.org. If you would like me to.

Do you have any mechanism for feedback or continuing work? As a small experiment, I had created this for Ryan last year: http://wiki.seds.org/index.php/SEDSWiki:Seds.org. I recommend especially the social site buttons/integration (http://wiki.seds.org/index.php/SEDSWiki:Seds.org/Social). If you want to know how to work that, I just spent some time learning to integrate it here: http://blogs.seds.org/roadtriptospace

Sorry to bother you, was quite impressed with what you did, and wanted to help. I'll leave the coding, design, etc., to you students; if you'd like some suggestions for organizing a group to do the web work, using the blogs, wiki, etc., I could make a few suggestions (but seriously, trying to keep my mouth shut as much as possible... apparently not working so well...)

[jneeskans]

Really cool design.

Just for an idea: http://andreasviklund.com/templates/ .. look at andreas00.

pradeep

[Styx]

Thanks for your comments!

The RSS feed has a couple small problems right now: (1) It relies on a script being able to write locally to the server, which it currently cannot do (meaning it can't be automatically updated). I will have to ask Chris about that. (2) It requires that htaccess rewrites are available for the permalink to actually work. I'm not sure if it's something wrong with my rewrite syntax (works fine on my server), but it brings the site down to a 500 error. Will also have to ask about that!

The SEDS-Earth layout was just one of the best I could find at the time. I don't think I have the actual code that runs the list signup. The form on there right now just uses what SEDS-Earth did, a post to http://seds.org/mailman/subscribe/seds-announce. I don't think I need to really touch it.

I don't currently have any mechanism for feedback. Thanks for the links! I will need to read up on those articles. (I'll be sure to add the social net buttons!)


jneeskans>

That is a pretty nice template. I'll see what it looks like on the site. (Maybe I could offer template changing?)

[jneeskans]

I remember hearing an earlier question about new DB options. Here's one. I haven't really looked into the nitty-gritties and have no idea of telling you if it's good or bad. But here it is anyway -Amazon's SimpleDB (http://www.amazon.com/b/ref=sc_fe_c_1_3435361_1?ie=UTF8&node=342335011&no=3435361&me=A36L942TSJ2AJA). It's in beta now, but it's good to check if something good might come out of it.

pradeep

[Styx]

The site will use MySQL. It's just simple to use and doesn't cost anything.